“He Said, He Said”
Topic: Baptist Press, People In The News, SBC| Written by: Todd Littleton|In 2004 Jimmy Draper sensed the graying of the SBC. He called leaders to take an initiative to engage and encourage young leaders. Intent to do as he suggested Draper planned a Road Trip stopping in a number of cities to share a conversation with those who would. Paul and I attended one of these “listening sessions” at the First Baptist Church, Broken Arrow, Oklahoma. Unsure of what constituted “young” in “young leader,” we found the conversations interesting to say the least. There is little doubt some things encouraged Dr. Draper while others confirmed his concern.
Several years ago I was invited to preach out our State Pastor’s Conference. I was the “young” preacher. I caught the early session, the one before the big hitters show up. I stayed for the meeting and told a couple of our staff members that if we continued as we were, it would not be long before our Pastor’s Conference became extinct. The issue was not the preaching. Rather the event illustrated the same statistics offered by Lifeway regarding the age of SBC Annual Meeting messengers/attendees. The number of “young” pastors/preachers may have scraped 15% of those in attendance. [I want to be quick to note, we have great fellowship and some solid preaching at our Pastor’s Conferences. My comments are not intended to denigrate our efforts at bringing challenging speakers to our events. Instead, the intent is to illustrate the dearth of young pastors in terms of percentage of attendance.] That is how I was introduced to the changing world of SBC denominational debate.
Recently, the ACP report indicated a membership decline. Several days after everyone seemed to agree there was a problem, few would disagree we are losing many young leaders, and most agree we need a plan for unity, Paige Patterson shows up with a long, rambling, analysis, swinging at everyone. (Is this the longest First Person ever, coming in at over 1800 words?)
Pay careful attention to the word games. Up to this point few would run from CR as Conservative Resurgence. Dr. Patterson chooses to recast the conversation in terms of a “Conservative Renaissance.” Not enough to quibble for most but a definite attempt to seize the conversation. Four “culprits” take the blame for the “decline” that is really not a decline. Occasionally willing to note direct correlations cannot be made, Dr. Patterson implies he has a handle on the declining numbers.
One of the more amusing moments is when Dr. Patterson takes a swipe at Dr. Frank Page. Frank is quoted in the Associated Press saying Baptists are often seen as mean spirited. (Does anyone really disagree with this????) A Google Search revealed only Dr. Frank Page is quoted describing the SBC as often seen as “mean-spirited.” Here at the Outpost are surprised Will Hall of Baptist Press and his boss Morris Chapman would allow the President of one of our seminaries to attack the President of the SBC in this manner. We believe such an action should merit an apology and a retraction. After all, it was agreed our entity heads would not attack one another.
Paige Patterson responds:
Is it also “mean-spirited” to make broad imprecise allegations of “mean-spiritedness”? Are some who make these charges guilty themselves?
Did he just say, “I’m rubber, your glue?” to Frank Page?
Nice.
Patterson objects to the loss of young leaders, asking if they were really ever “of us?” Are we to assume, since Patterson cites 1 John 2:19, that he believes people like Andy Stanley (and many many others) have left the faith—that they are not “of us.” I hope not. And, should we assume here that he is refuting the claims and emphases of men like Stetzer, Draper, and others. Again, I hope not.
Evidently we have a case of, “He said, He said.”
So who wins the day? Some will immediately defer to Dr. Patterson. After all, we owe him a debt for saving the SBC that is not in decline. We owe those who form the inner circle of the SBC a measure of respect for the blood on their swords to rid the SBC of those liberals.
Except in the same day BP is releasing the First Person piece by Patterson we also find Johnny Hunt will be nominated to be President of the SBC in Indianapolis. Ted Traylor will nominate Hunt. Two of the three reasons Traylor outlined for nominating Hunt turned on the issue of young leaders and unity. Evidently Traylor and others believe young leaders are indeed disinterested, if not leaving the SBC. And, rather than looking for gremlins and ghosts, some believe there is a need to unify around the Gospel, that there really is division in the SBC. (Can anyone guess where at least some of that division originates?)
So, you see, it is a, “He said, He said,” matter. Either Dr. Patterson’s analysis is correct, or Stetzer, Draper, Traylor, Page, Hunt, Aikin, Rainer, George, Dockery among others see the recent news as a clarion call not to call ghostbusters, but to face the facts. As with all things Baptist – you get to be the judge.
May 7th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
I wonder if anyone ever considered the possibility that He was upset with the SBC before the CR, and used the folks who instigated it, much as He mentioned using the Babylonians, in Habakkuk 1:6. Maybe the CR wasn’t His salvation, but His judgment.
May 7th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
“Did he just say, “I’m rubber, your glue?” to Frank Page?”
LOL! You’re killin me, here. Ok, off to read the Patterson piece.
May 7th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
In dealing with older people I find that they can get in a rut complaining about the same old thing over and over. When I ask them what they intend to do about it one of two things happen. Either they throw their hands up, eyes glazed over, and suggest “we just need to get back to the way it used to be”. Or they consider the question deeply and respond with wisdom that astounds and humbles me.
With age comes wisdom. With youth comes action. The SBC has both. How can we use that to Kingdom advantage?
May 7th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
I thought this line was great: “The need today is not for self-appointed analysts manipulating statistics and pontificating about their meaning, but who are usually less than stellar soul-winners, Bible teachers or pastors.”
Wow. PP must really know a lot about Stetzer and the Lifeway Research crew. So much for ‘not criticizing’ sister agencies and their servants.
May 7th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Patterson and Yarnell seem to be ‘on message’. Patterson asks “Where ARE these young leaders who left us” (prove it) and Yarnell asks in a round about way in his defense of seizing the intiative with his Ascol-lite resolution, “Who are these unregenerate church members” (prove it).
Is it just me or are these guys becoming bolder since Al decided not to run?
Using the term “Conservative Renaissance” is not just seizing the conversation but is a bit of rewriting history. He is smart enough to know that the term CR now carries with it some baggage since information is now flowing freely..thanks to blogs. It is a new descripter which uses loaded language and spin. I do expect the lemmings to start using it, though. What would you rather be: A Renaissance man or a Resurgance man?
He is just a bit too obvious for me.
May 7th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Sorry for the length of this, but I feel it needs to be said.
I actually think Southern Baptist don’t have a clue. Well, most Southern Baptist.
Here’s my point. I had a professor from one of the six seminaries come last year and do a conference for us in Delaware. Our people didn’t understand him because of the language he used. I challenged him to come and spend three months in the area and let us teach him about ministry here. He said he would love to but his president wouldn’t let, not even for a sabbatical.
Most Southern Baptist are in the South. But I live in the rest of the world, and here, if you mention Jesus up front, they won’t talk to you. EVER. When we moved to Delaware and into our house four years ago, the guy we bought it from went to all the neighbors and told them a pastor was moving in. Four years later, and the best we get out of those neighbors is hello, despite numerous attempts to engage them. Those that we got to know and then told we were pastors, will at least talk with us some, but it took a long time. And it took them moving into the area after we did.
People moved here from Georgia who went to Northpoint Community Church. They could not believe how difficult it was to talk to people. They mentioned church or Jesus, and their neighbors wouldn’t talk with them again.
Same for the planter of the church we started last year. I warned him to not play the pastor card or church card. He didn’t listen. All his neighbors helped him unload, brought him cookies, welcomed him to the neighborhood. The minute he mentioned “pastor” or “church” or “Jesus”, they will not talk to him. Not even a “hello”. Twenty people he had the opportunity to build relationships with him and get to know him so that he could share Christ. Not any more.
Having grown up in Alabama, in a SBC church, I understand the differences in culture. Most Southern Baptist don’t because they don’t know that the culture is becoming what I have just described. It’s like that from Delaware north and in California north. We can’t go out with tracts, we can’t start talking Jesus, or we will first be rejected and then never get another hearing. I want to be able to have dinner with people after I’ve shared Christ with them. How I do it determines whether that happens or not.
So when I read Patterson’s first person ramblings, I hear a man who does not understand culture.
As for the rest, well here is what I think needs to happen. What really is needed in our convention is repentance. It is time for those with blood on their hands from the conservative resurgence to “man up” and confess the ungodliness, slander, and vilification they participated in. They need to repent and resign their positions. I agree that we must be true to the scriptures, but the labeling of conservative people as liberal was a sin. It is time to be confessed. Our denomination will go as its leadership goes, and until the leadership openly confess their sin as it relates to the conservative resurgence, our denomination will continue to decline.
It is time for the churches in our denomination to shut down programs and fall on their face in prayer, confession, and repentance, and to cry out for the salvation of those we know who are not Christ followers.
It is time to organize around the mission of God, not the mission of the SBC.
It is time for the SBC to begin acting like humble missionaries, not triumphalist culture warriors.
It is time for the SBC to put the Holy Spirit back into His proper place as the third person of the Trinity, and get the Bible out of that spot.
The last and only hope for America is not the SBC. It is the Holy Spirit sweeping through the hearts of people. Can Southern Baptists be part of that? Yes, if we are willing to do it God’s way, not ours.
May 7th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
You have stated the article correctly in my opinion. I also agree with midwestsbcpastor. I just think whoever does the statistics should know better than anyone what they mean. It’s kind of like telling Henry Ford he should know his cars better.
I too noticed the obvious change from “Conservative Resurgence” to the “Conservative Renaissance.” This is indicative of the errors that are occurring in the Southern Baptist life. I am agreeing with Bob in that I think God is removing His hand from us and if I were to err, would err with this thinking and not that we do not need to change and repent. Again, time will tell. Just as those who are lost must accept or reject the message of salvation, so must we allow those to accept or reject the message such as given in this post and by others mentioned in this post, knowing that we face the consequences of our choices.
May 7th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
David Phillips, you are right on. I too am from Alabama, and now am in the BCMD, in Maryland 25 miles south of DC, and it is much the same way here that you describe in DE. Odd, you can go just a few miles further south of me and find very traditional Baptists and folks responding to traditional Baptist ways, but not here. It took us nearly four years of hard scrabble plowing to see any results, but we are seeing them now. And it is not related to giving out tracts or being culture warriors. I’d say we have been faithful to the Gospel, but in some rather non-traditional ways.
May 7th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Todd, Paul and Ben,
These are some of my Musings and food for a post.
Some people just can’t handle the TRUTH.
Who do you Believe and Trust after reading these Baptist News Articles?
Also notice that Baptist Press did not carry this Article and also notice the dates of these Articles.
Half of SBC churches could die before 2030, president predicts in a Speech May 1, 2008.
By Douglas Baker
Published May 6, 2008
http://www.abpnews.com/www/3162.article
FIRST-PERSON: Of grinches, goblins, gremlins and ghosts
Paige Patterson
Posted on May 6, 2008
http://www.bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp?ID=27996
Okay Baptist Identity People and Dr. Paige Patterson,
You poo pooed The reports fromLifeways and Ed Stetzer. How do you justify these difference in budgets that were hidden in Baptist Press new items. ,
2008 Budgests for Baptist Seminaries and the comparsion to SWBTS. SWBTS must have far more Student than any of the other Seminaries to Justify the HUGH difference in their Budgests. Can anyone furnish the Student Enrollment Figures for these Seminaries,
I can provide all the Dates for the Baptist Press Articles if you need them.
GGBTS $10,473,000 253% less than SWBTS
MidWestern $7,290,760 407% less than SWBTS
NOBTS $19,540,305 89% less than SWBTS
SEBTS $21.300,000 74% less than SWBTS
SWBTS $36,987,017 000%
CP: .30% behind pace of 2007
Posted on May 1, 2008 | by Staff
http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=27963
Now whom do you believe???????
Wayne
May 7th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
John Fariss,
Have we met? Were you a state guy who just retired?
May 7th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
I think my favorite part of Paige’s article was this:
Reason others give for decline:
we will never reach our world if we do not change and adopt methods that appeal to the culture…
Yet, he said that the reason for the decline is:
our churches, in their hot pursuit of cultural adaptability look more and more like the culture and the world.
Something isn’t adding up…
God’s Glory,
Lew
May 7th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Should it surprise anyone that Patterson continues the word-change doublespeak from “Conservative Resurgence” to “Conservative Renaissance”? The term “Conservative Resurgence” is false and misleading, so why not replace it with one that is also false and misleading?
May 7th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Ok, just one more from PP’s article that is food for thought and WAS a huge part of the CR even if they (or we) don’t want to admit it:
“The world and much of “Christianity” is irritated that Southern Baptists on one hand continue to oppose abortion, the practicing of homosexuality, gender confusion, the alcoholic beverage industry that annually kills, harms, and creates so much sorrow in the social order, and on the other hand support biblical role assignments in the home and church.”
Made me think of this:
Do our national problems hinder anyone from exercising faith? or love? or holiness? or repentance? or from pursuing a relationship with the living God? The early church had all of our national woes times ten - and was only stronger for it. Not only that, but they exerted no energy other than fervent prayer, sincere love and faithful witness to effect a change.
Did they place their hope in a better Rome? a more righteous Galatia? a Christian Corinth? Or was their hope solely “in the grace to be revealed at the revelation of Christ Jesus” (I Pet. 1:5)? Indeed it was, and that hope is still the calling to which we must be faithful. The world’s need for moral reformation is not our mission - any more than reforming Egypt was Israel’s responsibility in the days of Moses.
Entire article here: http://www.searchingtogether.org/articles/frazier/cworld.htm
This constant focus on what we oppose in the culture did not work as well as we thought. The time and energy spent waring with the culture could have been put to better use modeling Christ in the marketplace and preaching the Gospelto save souls. Pattersons words come off as ‘proud’ to me when opposing such things really means little. How does publicly opposing such things regenerate hearts?
I think the answer to Lew’s question is that Patterson really thinks changing the culture to be more moral IS the Gospel.
May 7th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
I found this statement especially ironic.
“But we could discover no place in history where any movement based on questioning the authority and accuracy of God’s Word ever produced evangelistic fervor, missionary zeal or healthy churches.”
After the takeover he helped lead, the SBC is less evangelistic, less missions-oriented, and its churches are wheezing.
That being said, I believe that even if Patterson and Pressler had failed, the SBC would be declining today. The move away from denominationalism is deep among Christians and I don’t believe any amount of prayer or hand-wringing or whistling in the dark is going to stop it.
Maybe God is doing a new thing.
May 7th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
I have great respect for Dr. Patterson and do not wish to dishonor him, but I must take issue with his treatment of this issue:
The suggestion that sensitivity to the culture and the incorporation of that culture into the church and its worship is the change, which if implemented, would start us on the road to evangelistic effectiveness is misguided. I am the first to admit that dullness and “Baptist tradition” were too often the rule in our churches. There is no excuse for being boring or settling into numbing sameness. For years I inveighed against high church music, not because I did not like it but because it communicated with less than 10 percent of the people.
If Dr. Patterson believes that “dullness” and music style are the primary issues to consider in relating to our culture, he is not as astute as I’ve given him credit for. Relating to our culture has far less to do with what our worship services look like than with what our lives look like the other six days of the week. If we truly made disciples who passionately took the Gospel to the people around them in Biblically faithful and culturally appropriate ways, it wouldn’t matter what style of worship we prefer.
May 7th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Let’s see…
–Paige Patterson just called guys like Ed Stetzer and Marty duren “gremlins”
–Paige Patterson just called Frank Page “mean spirited”
–Paige Patterson just admitted that evangelism, discipleship and church growth were never objectives of the Conservative Renaissance Fair
–Paige Patterson just fired a shot across the bow of a sister agency and the president of the SBC
…all in a Baptist Press article. Way to go Willie Hall. That’s the way to show you’re not a pawn. With this pontification, Paige continues to magnify his irrelevance. And by publishing this mess, BP should be shut down.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Patterson says, “We lie to ourselves and to the world to count people as ‘members’ who no longer have anything to do with our churches.”
So he admits that as a denomination we have been lying. Yet, Wade Burleson has documented that Patterson was adamantly opposed to including language calling for repentance in Yarnell’s regenerate church membership resolution.
Isn’t repentance an appropriate response to acknowledged lying? If Patterson truly believes the SBC has been lying, then why is he against calling for the SBC to repent of lying?
May 7th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Your question is my question Matt.
May 7th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
It seems that lying is not a really bad sin. You can lie and it’s no big deal. Just ignore being called on it and move on.
And, by the way, let’s rip Rev. 21:8 out of our Bibles. I don’t think we believe it anyway.
May 7th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
The term “Conservative Renaissance” makes me wonder if someone has read the following:
The “Conservative Resurgence” and the “Baptist Renaissance”
http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2007/01/conservative-resurgence-and-baptist.html
May 8th, 2008 at 12:16 am
Where Dr. P. says, “To be unapologetically Baptist, embracing the exclusivism of Christ in salvation,” shouldn’t it be “exclusivity”? Wouldn’t exclusivism mean that we don’t want anyone else to be saved? I guess that could explain the “mean-spirited” thing.
May 8th, 2008 at 9:00 am
It is my understand that Dr. P was referencing bloggers when he said “mean-spirited” and not Frank Page. The first time I read it, that was my take.
May 8th, 2008 at 9:55 am
1. Membership rolls: we all know what it’s taken to join a Baptist church during the past 50+ years. Although we’ve been pretty happy to have folks join while expecting little from them, still it takes a little something to get ones name on the roll. Each name does represent some story–even if half the persons named cannot be located and seem to like it that way. It actually appears that the ignorance of pastors and churches’ lay-leaders, and not the reports of congregations, should be poo-pooed now for the membership reports; our leaders should have held out higher standards for membership. At the least, churches report distinctions between “resident” and “non-resident” members in an effort to be somewhat honest, all of us realizing what the terms mean.
2. Culture thing: if the SBC were a donut shop instead of an affiliation of churches, we’d pay especially-careful attention to what our customers say will keep them customers. If donut industry literature indicated increasingly that customers are less desirous of the dozen donuts they buy being handed to them through the drive-up window in a box, but instead want those same donuts delivered in a woman’s hat, our shop would have 3 choices: (1) go out of business immediately because we refuse to change; (2) go out of business slowly as we seek to change the public’s mind about what it really wants; or, (3) invest heavily in lady’s hats and keep making/eating/selling donuts. I think we know what we’d do–choice #3. The concept is called “adaptation” in organizational theory and its one of four big problems which purposeful people-groups (like churches) must solve each day in order to ensure a brighter tomorrow. SBC churches haven’t adapted their ministries or gospel-delivery methods well to their cultures in their locations (the gospel is objectively true and cannot actually be changed; its delivery, though, can and should be adjusted for the audience to receive it). Adaptation is the first outward-looking step in group life, following a satisfactory handling of integration and motivation internally–which we also have done well as SBC churches.
The SBC’s current membership difficulties are both spiritual and infrastructure/educational/administrative. Many things can be done about the organizational/operational issues–but they must be addressed just as much as the spiritual/revival needs, else the spiritual/revival needs will reoccur in about 3 weeks!
May 8th, 2008 at 10:05 am
Jim,
The phrase “mean-spirited” is in quotes in the First Person piece. It appeared to reflect something said by someone Dr. Patterson was reacting to rather than an assertion that it exists and stems from bloggers. Since the rest of the piece takes humbrage with recent Lifeway Research it seems so much a reaction piece than an assessment piece. In other words, who should step out to defend the CR but the architect. So, he did.
May 8th, 2008 at 11:06 am
It seems Peter “Oh I Love My Hair” Mullet Man Lumpkin has turned his wrath upon SBC Outpost. Any response Todd, to the jeers from SBC Tomorrow’s Fantasy Land?
May 8th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Last line, second paragraph: “. . . which we also HAVEN’T done well as SBC churches . . .” instead.
May 8th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
First, of all if anyone here is a decendent of a gremlin… I mean come on.. have you seen PP’s picture?
I am new to this blog. Would it ever be appropriate to have an official SBC OutPost shun? Perhaps you could make T-Shirts that say “I shunned Paige Patterson.” I’d buy one.
May 8th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Stop the Mullet Man,
I was not aware until your comment Mr. Lumpkins was still reading the Outpost. I then find not only is he reading it, but he is fretting over the infrequent posting of late. I did not realize our popularity still lingered with our brother in Georgia.
May 11th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Quote: Patterson objects to the loss of young leaders, asking if they were really ever “of us?”
And the young leaders response?
“Do I really want to be affiliated with you?”
Did Patterson just say that I wasn’t a follower of Christ or that I wasn’t a “good follower of HIS Baptist faith?”
just so out of touch…