SBCOutpost

Some of us were unable to attend the SBC Annual Meeting in Indianapolis. We are grateful for those who Twittered (Ed Stetzer) and blogged (Tom Ascol and others). Technology allowed many of us to listen in from the outside (like Timmy Brister). Alan Cross may have watched the entire meeting from gavel to gavel. He offers his thoughts in the following piece re-posted here with permission. We offer this post as you anticipate the return of the flag waving Ben Cole.

June 11, 2008

Convention Finale: Does the SBC Have a Future?

My mentor, Dr. Rick Davis, recently suggested the need to check out information posted on blogs for “verification and authentication.” In my previous post I noted Nathan Finn calling attention to the new dynamics the Internet creates for SBC politics. In today’s edition of The Daily Oklahoman religion reporter Carla Hinton wrote a piece titled, “Blogging boosts dialogue.” (The online version of the article is titled, “Southern Baptists’ access to information a click away.”)

Wade Burleson, Wes Kenney and Debbie Kaufman receive press for their participation in blogging. Burleson noted his interest began while serving on the Board of Trustees of the IMB. Most, if not all, Outpost readers would be familiar with Burleson. Hopeful blogging would bring more information, transparency and accountability Burleson began blogging chiefly regarding policy changes at the IMB. Since that time Wade has posted on a variety of subject.

Kenney is one of the four founders of SBCToday according to the article. He too considers the goal of of SBCToday to provide information and a place to dialogue primarily about Baptist identity issues. Comments are moderated and when the moderators consider a comment unhelpful will delete it informing its author.

Kenney took the occasion to point up the difference between the aims of SBCToday and another blog SBCTooDazed. On the one hand those at SBCToday contend for a focus on issues rather than personalities. Kenney suggested SBCTooDazed makes personality the issue. I checked out SBCTooDazed and find it not too dissimilar from early parody sites of SBCOutpost. Anyone remember “Marty binDuren?” In fact, those parody attempts used satire just the same to draw attention to the authors differing perspectives. The parody sites of SBCOutpost were also offered by anonymous authors. We too, the Outpost Team, may eschew the method but I did find the content of SBCTooDazed to, more often than not, address an issue raised by SBCToday once getting past the name changes.

I, like Kenney, may prefer a different forum for discussion. But, I do recall reading those early parody sites to hone my own understanding and hope to get an idea of the author’s particular nuance of an argument or difference of opinion. If someone takes the time to write, it may even be a compliment, though I may not think so.

Debbie Kaufman finds blogs helpful to her understanding of issues in the SBC. She notes a regular regimen of research she hopes will continue to make her a more informed voter.
Doubtless one could spend inordinate time perusing the innumerable SBC blogs. Some write blogs with a narrow focus on SBC issues/politics. Others write with their local church in mind. Still others write for a combination of audiences. Careful reading may indeed offer information worthy of consideration. Conversation, as noted in the previous post, would be a great outcome.

There is little doubt each of these bloggers intend to shape opinion. Any change that comes will be a result of any number of factors - thoughtful content, welcome diversity in conversation, and the receptivity to other ideas by the reader among a host of others.

1985. Some mark 1985 as something of a watershed in the survival of the Conservative Resurgence. It was the year of the Peace Committee appointment (the report came in 1987). It was the year of the Battle in Big D. It served the high water mark for messenger registration - more than 45,000.  It was the year the New York Times reported it unlikely the two groups vying for control of the SBC would find a way forward together. It was the year of the re-election of Charles Stanley. It was the year. It was the year of, “Where In the World is Carmen Sandiego?”

Marty Duren was a young lad - in his mid 20’s. Who knows where he was geographically or historically. In fact, who knew Marty Duren? Who cared? After Jimmy Draper’s alert the SBC was losing young leaders, Marty emerged as an interested “young leader.” Once the Lifeway message board devolved into something of a pointless exercise in the way forward Steve McCoy and Marty Duren initiated blogs of their own.

Marty is the originator of SBCOutpost.com. Too often critics assume Marty’s withdrawal from regular contributions to the Outpost signaled a separation from anyone who sought to keep the Outpost viable and alive. Recently, it was reported the Outpost would soon be defunct. Should the Outpost ever cease it will come on the back of sentiments similar to what Marty will explicate in a series he began today at ie:missional. Detractors, Baptist Identity constituents, and many others will break open a soda and celebrate if we ever fade into the history of Baptist blogs. Some of us believe those who need a fight need the Outpost. Something like the fact that Rush Limbaugh needs a Clinton in the White House.

So, with that lengthy introduction we will re-post Marty’s series here with permission. We will learn, “Where In the World is Marty Duren?”

The Impending Disintegration of American Denominationalism

Posted by: Marty Duren in Church, Culture, God, Gospel, Life, Mission, Missional, News

Ten months ago when I began this blog, I purposed not to engage in discussion about the denomination in which I have pastored, the Southern Baptist Convention, unless it crossed paths with a subject about which I was writing. This is one of those times.

A recent report from missiologist Ed Stetzer of Lifeway Christian Resources indicated that the Southern Baptist Convention, once characterized (because of its cultural dominance) as the Roman Catholic Church of the southern United States, has entered a downward trend of growth which, he predicts, may not turn around. If you are among those who haven’t yet, you can read the initial report here and the follow up article here.

As would have been expected, the report was hailed in some places (see Ed’s comment threads) and questioned in others. The question that does not seem to have been asked during this is simple: Has the time for heavily organized, bureaucratically inefficient denominational structures passed? My thesis is a simple one and flows from what I see happening:

The era of denominationalism is ending, therefore, time and energy spent attempting to revive them is not redeemed time.

Rather than reviving them, we should be having a planned euthanization. I will not be arguing “post-denominational” in the sense of personal preference or lack thereof, but “Post-Denominationalism” in the sense of no SBC, UMC, PCUSA, etc.

Though Stetzer’s commentary is specific to growth patterns in the SBC, all other denominations in the United States are and have been in decline with the single exception of the Assemblies of God which counts but 2.8 million members (2005). Even the respected National Association of Evangelicals has lost some of its luster since the fall of Ted Haggard, though, as we will see, it never had quite as much luster as was thought. Regardless of the denomination none have matched, via conversions, the growth rate of the population (excepting possibly the AoG), so in percentage of population terms all American denominations have been in decline for decades. At best, a few denominations have grown at the expense of others, the common scenario known as “swapping sheep.”

Is the motivation to “save the denomination” a good enough motivation to go into hyper-drive in funds promoting or doomsday scenarios? I don’t think so. When Jesus said to the people of Jerusalem, “Behold, your house [the temple] has been left to you desolate,” He was warning them that there system of belief was coming to an end. There were no more sacrifices needed, no more pouring out of animal blood, no more Day of Atonement; it was over. Their mistake was that they continued to cling to a structure that God Himself had abandoned. Shall we repeat the same mistake?

Writing with an eye to the Southern Baptist Convention, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary prof, Nathan Finn, recently asked:

So does the SBC have a future? It depends upon what you mean by “future.” I suspect the name will be used by some Baptists until Christ comes back. I also think the people called Southern Baptists will always have denominational entities that they financially support. So in one sense, I remain confident that Southern Baptists are here to stay. But if by “future” one means a vital existence in God’s economy, I have my doubts. Collectively, I fear we are too insular, too sectarian, too pugnacious, too “Southern,” too reactionary, too pragmatic, and for sure too proud to have any real future.

While I appreciate Nathan’s balanced thinking, I, for one, am not convinced that any denomination is here to stay and am convinced that the era, like the telegraph, is passing into the historical record and that we have entered the Post-Denominational (PD) era.

Commenting on Ed Stetzer’s original post, SEBTS prof Alvin Reid noted,

For several semesters I have asked our students “how many of you came from an SBC church?” The vast majority. Then I ask, “How many of you want to go back and serve a church just like that?” Almost none. These are seminarians, the ones we still have, and they see a serious need for change. Again, this is anecdotal and simplistic, but here is another idea–have someone do a survey of current seminarians to find out who they listen to on podcasts? Might be revealing.

This is not merely true of the SBC as other denominations are dealing with the same issues. No one is important enough to have cornered the market here.

Also responding to Stetzer was SEBTS president, Danny Akin, who said,

I could not agree with your assessment more! I go to bed thinking about this every night and wake up the same.We are in serious trouble. Our denomination is at a crisis moment and we will either repent, seek the forgiveness and mercy of God and perhaps experience a true and genuine revival from our Lord, or we will continue our present course and simply fade away with the Lord Jesus justly removing His hand of blessing.

But what if no amount of repentance and seeking of forgiveness will bring revival and revitalization to the SBC or any other denomination? What if, like the sacrificial system, their time has run it’s course and God is preparing a new thing? I pray that it will be embraced rather than feared.

Over the next few posts, I will be exploring why I think we will continue down the road toward a Post-Denominationalism world. We’ll see that the SBC and evangelicals have not had either the numbers or the power that we’ve thought and will continue to lose both in the US; that the Kingdom of God is shifting again (as it has before) this time from dominance in the West; and that technology has rendered the need for heavily bureaucratic, densely centralized, financially profligate organizational structures obsolete and that the lessening of the influence of denominations in culture will be inversely proportional to the influence of local churches networking in culture.

Today Ed Stetzer is reporting that, for the first time in our history, the Southern Baptist Convention is in decline in terms of overall membership. We’ve been in decline in baptisms for about seven or so years and now we are seeing that reflected in our membership numbers.

He writes:

…you cannot miss the fact that a dubious historical milestone has been reached—and it needs to be noted in denominational and church offices across the country.

There are three issues Stetzer says we, as a denomination, should address:

1. The absence of young leaders and ethnic leaders in denominational life.
2. Denominational infighting.
3. (most importantly) We’ve lost our focus on the gospel.

Check out Ed’s blog for more details. More commentary to come.

Earlier this week James Galyon posted an interview with Bill Wagner specifically related to his position on missions and Dr. Wagner’s publicly stated position on Calvinism as it relates to missions and evangelism. Dr. Galyon does a fine job in this interview and we link to it as we all continue to consider who might serve as the next President of the SBC.

Art Rogers pointed me to a post by Timmy Brister. “Ministerially Speaking” is a euphemism for exaggeration. Many over the years have given a free pass to those of us who preach when we have overstated to make a point. You may have heard, or said yourself, “Now this is not ministerially speaking.” The reference indicates our own growing discomfort with the reality words mean something. Exaggeration should not pass as the truth.

I repost Timmy’s indictment on us all to continue to make my point our issues tend to be systemic rather than exclusively connected to a single persona. Had Timmy taken the same data from our church he would have made similar discoveries - and dare I say we all would succumb to the evidence of our own pastoral contexts. Tom Ascol’s repeated calls for accountability when it comes to church membership make the same point. Something is amiss when we pass ourselves off as something we are not.

Please note there the peculiar reason Timmy used the illustration he did. Rather than excoriate him, or me for re-posting, pause and think reflectively on the issues at the heart of this problem. Maybe you will offer a solution or corrective. This post is offered with the author’s permission.

“Ministerially Speaking”

“Though official statements still affirm the doctrine of regenerate church membership, statistics indicate a different reality for the great majority of Baptist churches in North America.”
- John S. Hammett, Professor of Systematic Theology, SEBTS

Introduction

A couple of weeks ago, I was sitting in class when my professor was discussing characteristics of biblical leadership, and during that discussion I learned of a term often used when talking about churches and their statistics. The term “ministerially speaking” is used when someone does not accurately present the facts or stats but rather exaggerates or embellishes the truth to their own benefit.

In Southern Baptist life, numbers and statistics seem to be a big deal. You will hear the defense and argument everywhere from the fact that we have a book in the Bible called “Numbers” to the pragmatic rationale of management principles for ministerial success. Over the course of my experience as a Southern Baptist with the heightened emphasis on numbers, I had become frustrated because of my conviction that we had auctioned the church off to corporate America and unrestrained pragmatism in the pursuit of upholding denominational dominance and triumphalism. Every time for instance, when you hear that we Southern Baptists account for 16+ million people, we of course are “ministerially speaking.” For example, while in 2004 Southern Baptists reported a total of 16,267,494 members, only 6,024,289 (37%) were on average present for Sunday morning worship. The 16 million is the number we report to the secular media, and the 6 million is the number we report to God–and that on a good day.

“Ministerially Speaking” in Focus

But at this particular juncture and season of SBC politics, “ministerially speaking” perhaps is best seen when Baptist Press announces another candidate for an SBC office. At the very heart of their reporting, you will find a lot of numbers, most of which comes from the Annual Church Profile database. For instance, let’s take the most recent candidate for president, Frank Cox, pastor of North Metro Baptist Church in Lawrenceville, Georgia.

Baptist Press reports,

“Cox has been North Metro’s pastor for more than 27 years. Under his leadership, the church has grown from 700 members to more than 4,600, with 3,600-plus individuals added to the church fellowship as baptized believers.”

I have to pause for a moment to emphasize a stat that I love, perhaps the most important of them all. Cox has been at North Metro for 27 years and stands as a testament to pastoral permanence in a flighty generation. I praise God for men like Frank Cox who find their life assignment in loving a congregation and leading them to reach their world for Christ.

But notice with me that the church has grown to 4,600 members with over 3,600 added through believer’s baptism. Those numbers are certainly impressive. But “ministerially speaking,” it could be even more impressive if you consider what Bob Terry, editor of The Alabama Baptist recently shared. In the February 21, 2008 editorial, Terry wrote the following:

“Other out-of-state speakers include Frank Cox, who is returning to the Alabama Baptist Evangelism Conference, and Herb Reavis Jr., senior pastor of North Jacksonville Baptist Church, Jacksonville, Fla. Cox, who previously spoke at the 2005 and 1998 state evangelism conferences, is senior pastor of North Metro Baptist Church, Lawrenceville, Ga. During his 25-plus years as pastor, he has led the church to grow from just under 500 members to more than 5,400.”

Now which is it? 4,600 members or 5,400? That’s a significant difference, don’t you think? But we must go on as more numbers await us.

A couple of paragraphs further in the same BP article, they add:

“The most recent information available, Southern Baptists’ 2006 Annual Church Profile Survey, lists 110 baptisms and primary worship service attendance of 1,737 for North Metro.”

According to Baptist Press, North Metro has at least 4,600 members but only 1,737 who show up on any given Sunday. We are not talking here about Sunday School, service, or ministry; rather, we are talking about those who simply sit in a pew on Sunday morning. Doing a little math will reveal that 37% of their membership are visibly present on Sunday (exactly the percentage from 2004 stated above), or put another way, nearly 2 out of 3 members do not attend “primary worship” services. Now the question then, is, why do we not talk about the numbers which are more realistic than the big, bloated numbers which so often get touted on newspaper write-ups and articles? But we must go on as more numbers await us.

Taking the same ACP data Baptist Press uses for their statistics, I have compiled the relevant data from 2000-2006 regarding North Metro as it is not really fair to look at a church over one year. So I wanted to see the church over a decent period of time, so I choose this seven-year period, and here is how the numbers shaped up:

Analysis

2000

3980 members
2636 resident members
141 baptisms
185 other additions
2003 primary worship attendance

2001

4000 members
2921 resident members
209 baptisms
246 other additions
2000 primary worship attendance

2002

4488 members
2960 resident members
140 baptisms
229 other additions
1425 primary worship attendance

2003

3931 members
3164 resident members
193 baptisms
219 other additions
1496 primary worship attendance

2004

4055 members
3278 resident members
140 baptisms
214 other additions
1676 primary worship attendance

2005

4188 members
3396 resident members
162 baptisms
199 other additions
1944 primary worship attendance

2006

4302 members
3486 resident members
110 baptisms
228 other additions
1737 primary worship attendance

Total Baptisms 2000-2006 1,095
Total Other Additions 2000-2006 1,520
Membership Growth from 2000-2006 322
Attendance Growth from 2000-2006 -266
Number of “Inactive” Members 2,565
A/A Differential* 2,615/-266
UCM Index** 60%

* A/A Differential = Total additions 2000-2006 / Total attendance growth 2000-2006
** UCM Index = 2006 Inactive Membership divided by 2006 Total Membership

The last paragraph is the totals of 2000-2006 combined. Take a moment, and consider these numbers with me.

First, while North Metro added 2,615 through baptism and “other additions,” their membership increased by only 322. What are we saying about the relationship of baptism and church membership? Ministerially speaking, the church grew by 2,615 members; biblically speaking, church membership increased by 322.

Second, again while North Metro added 2,615 during those seven years, they had a net decrease of -266 in primary worship attendance. What are we saying about the gospel and conversion when we baptized 1000+ people only to see a church decline in attendance during that same period? Ministerially speaking, the church added 2,615 people; biblically speaking, the church declined by 266 people.

Third, the total membership in 2006 was not 4,600 or 5,400 as Baptist Press reported but 4,302. But even with that number, the average attendance of 1,737 divided by 4,302 comes to 60% of the church not fulfilling their basic responsibility of worshiping God and hearing the Word preached on any given Sunday (a total of 2,565 “inactive” members. What are we saying about church discipline and the covenant community we call the local church? Imagine a corporation (if we go that route) where only 4 out of 10 of its employees ever showed up to work. How would it continue to function? So ministerially speaking, the church is comprised of 4,302 members; biblically speaking, the church has 1,737 members.

Conclusion

I could go on, but you do not need more numbers or my analysis to get the point. Numbers do matter - even the ones we cringe to look at and accept. But we must accept them. We must not be “ministerially speaking” but “biblically speaking”. My dean, Dr. Chuck Lawless, has a great blog entitled “Biblical Church Growth,” and I believe that is what we need today. I think it is clear to us all that adding 2,600+ members to one’s church should result in something more like 2,600 regular attenders (roughly speaking), not a decrease of 266 attenders. You see, behind these numbers tell us a lot about how serious we examine our churches, church membership, church discipline, the gospel, conversion, and a whole host of other things that distinctively make us Baptist. But more than being Baptist, we must be biblical, and to be biblical, we must begin with a humble confession and a honest assessment of where we are today. The problems we face will never be solved by denominational politics or presidents or anyone else “ministerially speaking.” They will be solved when we take a look at the Bride of Christ and say, “I will give my life for her that she may be pure, holy, and devoted to Christ our Head.” The reports in heaven will set the record straight, but God forbid that we wait until then to see our great need in the here and now.

It just doesn’t have to be that way, and we don’t just have to be “ministerially speaking” either.

In the early days of the SBC Young Leader Initiative a person might be reading the comment thread over at Steve McCoy’s site and discover the handle, “iMonk.” Michael Spencer is internetmonk. On his site you may find this piece about Micheal, a 1984 graduate of Southern Seminary,

Internet Monk is the personal web space of missional communicator Michael Spencer. Michael is a missional thinker, communicator and writer living in southeastern Kentucky. “I am deconstructing and moving past my evangelicalism; rediscovering what it means to be vitally connected to Jesus. That process is always worth sharing.”

On Sabbatical retreat iMonk visited his alma mater. His reflections were recorded in a February 23rd post titled, The Empty Shelf in the Southern Baptist Bookstore. This post is offered here with permission. I am grateful.

The Empty Shelf in the Southern Baptist Bookstore

February 23rd, 2008 by Michael Spencer

I’m very interested in what current SBTS and other SBC seminary students have to say about your future in the SBC. Will you stay if Calvinism becomes a divisive, “lose your job” issue in the SBC? Would you prefer a Driscoll, Piper or Mahaney Network (T4G) to the current SBC?

CLARIFICATION: I’m a post-evangelical, and that applies to the SBC. But some of what I want to keep is stuff my tradition has in its attic! To be post-evangelical differs from being emerging in the sense that I want to keep my Baptist polity, historical (not current) view of the sacraments, cooperative missions vision and emphasis on missions.

Don’t stand too close to me in public. I’m going to blog your conversation. Yes, I’m that kind of writer.

After the Louisville Institute sabbatical orientation, I stopped at a few bookstores, including the large Lifeway Bookstore on the campus of my alma mater (’84), The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

I’ve been visiting the SBTS bookstore since the late 1970’s. I’ve watched it change through the years as SBTS and evangelicals themselves have changed. Today’s Southern Seminary Bookstore is a cornucopia of Calvinism, reflecting a seminary that is leading the Calvinistic resurgence in the SBC. If you are a lifelong Southern Baptist who would have ever found it difficult to believe that pastors in your convention would buy bobbleheads of Martin Luther, busts of John Calvin or framed prints of various infant-baptizing, state-church sponsoring reformers, I have news for you: It’s big business. There may be a head of Lottie Moon in there somewhere, but the business of little statues and pictures is almost entirely a presentation of Luther, Calvin and the Puritan-influenced reformers. (Apologies to your Roman Catholic friends can be sent directly to the IM post office.)

Don’t get me wrong. I’m a catholic Christian and I benefit from the gifting of the Holy Spirit to the church as a whole. But I was brought up in Landmark Baptist dispensational fundamentalism, and part of me is still a little rattled to see just how far the Calvinist resurgence has come in the SBC. I applaud its good fruit and pray for more, especially in the health and theology of churches. God bless The Founders, 9 Marks and their work. I also have many questions and concerns about what will happen in the SBC in the immediate future as thousands of Calvinist students make their way into a very evangelical, revivalistic, Arminian-leaning denomination.

Back to my evesdropping. I was standing at the “New Releases/Popular Authors” section. “Popular authors” these days include SBC Calvinists like Mark Dever and Al Mohler, alongside non-SBCers such as John Piper, John Macarthur and C.J. Mahaney.

Regular, Nashville published, fully Cooperative, SBC saved, trained and ordained authors? Not many. In fact, there were very, very few. A relatively empty shelf of significant influences and books, so to speak.

The subjects of my evedropping efforts were two students discussing Redeemer Presbyterian pastor Tim Keller’s new apologetics book. Keller, the rising star of the PCA and of conservative evangelicalism in general, has written the kind of book Southern Baptists have largely failed to write or promote in the last fifty years. Apologetics is just one area where the shelf of Southern Baptists is largely empty.

I don’t doubt that some Southern Baptist writers have written apologetic materials in the past, but for whatever reason, these materials passed quickly into oblivion, exerting little influence over the denomination that produced them. They are just one category of writing, thinking, teaching and publishing that find Southern Baptists largely awol. Aside from books on church growth, evangelism and the “popular” level of devotional literature, Southern Baptists have shown little interest in making major contributions to the evangelical conversation, including areas that it would seem SBCers would have taken up their pens and addressed.

Read the rest of this entry »

Recently the boys over at SBC Yesterday Today (just a little humor, boys. Don’t get your blood pressure up) made a proposal that when the time comes for Jerry Rankin to retire from the IMB the convention should look to a pastor to lead our great missions organization into the future. In light of that proposal I would like to suggest one of my own.

Let me first of all say that there are many things for which we can be grateful in regards to Dr. Paige Patterson. His best work may well have been in pulling Southeastern Seminary out of the miry pit and setting its feet on a solid rock. While there are things with which he and I would disagree - such as whether or not a woman can teach theology to men (and it seems to me that women regularly teach theology to men in the music and education departments at SWBTS even today - and if they do not then they should be fired) - nevertheless, he aided in the rescue of the SBC from a liberal drift and helped to set us back onto a squarely conservative path.

One of these days Dr. Patterson will retire from SWBTS. When that time comes I hope that the trustees will give full consideration to hiring a president who has no long-term educational experience. Read the rest of this entry »